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If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to. They will be explained to you soon enough. For a boat that will be single-handed, i want a chartplotter at the helm. But, i also want to be able to interface with it from down below - send waypoints, routes., etc.

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Also, i'd like to view radar, AIS etc down below. One option is to have two networked chartplotters., and i can do this with pretty much any brand of chartplotter. But i'm thinking i'd rather not buy a second chartplotter, but do it from my laptop instead. I'm not really asking about full-fledged PC nav software - i already have several programs, including expedition.

I'm only asking about interfacing with a chartplotter at the helm. How good is RNS? Is it actively supported? Do they upgrade it? Is there a similar product from any other manufacturer? I have tried the demo of the Raytech, it pretty much turns your PC screen into a simulated chartplotter.

It is supported (as well as Raymarine supports anything.), don't know what will happen now that FLIR is in charge. I found it to be kind of clunky. The only thing that you cannot do with MUCH cheaper and better working software is view (and control) the radar. The instrument data can be viewed on most anything, there are very cheap (or free) programs that will serve the chartplotter function on free NOAA charts or any pay-for charts you like, most of them will plot AIS targets. So unless viewing the radar below is critical, I would skip the Raytech. Oh, and if you go to Raymarine.com you can download the RayTech planner, which is a slightly lobotomized version of Raytech for free.

Should give you more than a flavor of what the stuff does. I did an offshore race on a friend's boat as naviguesser this year. He has an E80 at the helm. For the same reasons of having control over the E80 via the High Speed Ethernet Switch that's also needed, I installed the latest version of RNS on my laptop. I usually use Expedition and other tools.

RNS was awful. We only ever needed to see the radar at the helm on a couple of occasions and therefore didn't really need to see it at the nav station. As far as sharing C-Map charts, not all C-Map charts are compatible with the E80. The C-Map charts I bought for use with Expedition (East Coast USA to Bermuda) weren't compatible with the E80. Here is my summary of what I think of it: - The concept of controlling the chart plotter/radar and sharing charts sounds useful. It's a terrible executions of that idea from a technological architecture perspective. It was written to emulate the clunky interface of a chart plotter as opposed to using a typical GUI of a windows environment, coupled with a decent API to the E80.

As a result, simple acts of zooming in and out of charts or dragging/panning the chart (as can you do in 99% of other PC charting software) is as awkward as it is on the chart plotter. If i wanted to look at charts, this would be the last piece of software I'd use. It certainly has a rich list of features including performance, polars, and weather routing, most of which I tried, however, due to the interface being awkward, convoluted, non-intuitive and very slow, I disliked using it. If you have Expedition already, then you'd never want to touch RNS (despite RNS starting life as a cousin of Expedition - it's now a long lost cousin!!! - Just starting it up takes forever as it searches all of your hard drive for charts. Then having found and listed the hundreds of NOAA, Navionics, and C-Map charts I have, I then had to select all those I might want to use during the time that RNS was running.

Even the El Cheapo MapTech Offshore Navigator does a much better job of chart management. It runs best under Windows XP however a Windows update I installed a week before leaving on the race caused RNS to hang on startup. Even removal and re-installation didn't solve that problem. As a result, I removed it. I never missed it and it's a shame to see a good idea so poorly implemented. Thanks for the info - seems like it's not so great., although if all i want is an easy way to transfer waypoints and routes to the chartplotter, it might be ok. DDW - i am not sure that any of the programs you are talking about will interface with an on-deck chartplotter.

I already have several PC nav programs, including expedition, and none will do this. TWM -thanks, but i guess i'm not that interested. WHL - i wasn't really thinking i would use my c-map charts (which i bought for expedition) in RNS.

I guess my understanding was that RNS could use the charts loaded into the chartplotter. Expedition will display AIS and radar - although i haven't done this myself yet - i've just left that on the chartplotter., so i guess all i really need is the waypoint/route transfer. It seems odd that basically none of the chartplotter manufacturers have pursued integration of the chartplotter with the PC. I have navigated on a few boats with the new B&G Zeuss chartplotter, and i had some hope that there would PC commiunication there - because it was supposedly designed to integrate with Deckman., but i had to transfer waypoints via a thumb drive (very clunky), and it was highly sensitive to the exact syntax of the GPX file - GPX created in one program worked, and GPX created in an other program didn't work., i've never had an issue with GPX compatibility before. DDW - i am not sure that any of the programs you are talking about will interface with an on-deck chartplotter. I already have several PC nav programs, including expedition, and none will do this. I have PolarNavy and MacENC (both on a Mac) as well as an early version of Raytech 6.0.

PolarNavy Polarview is about $29 and will chartplot all the NOAA stuff (both raster and vector); its companion PolarCom is free and will display all instrument data, display AIS targets, transfer waypoints to and from the E80/E120. Both PolarNavy programs are available for OSX, Windows, and Linux, and are a spectacular value in my opinion.

MacENC is more ($179) will chartplot most format charts, displays instrument data, AIS targets, and transfer waypoints to and from the Raymarine system. Neither will share the data from a Navionics cartridge plugged into the E120, but I have never found this to be even the slightest drawback. I have a Bluetooth MUX connected to the ST1 bus which translates the ST1 datagrams into NMEA and broadcasts it to whatever computer is paired (we have a built-in Mac Mini, a Mac Laptop, an iPad, and iPhones on board). Any of these can track the boat on various moving charts, see instrument data, etc.

Any of them can be used to plot waypoints and transfer them to the Raymarine system via the Bluetooth MUX. There are free open-source programs that will do the same things, OpenCPN for example which will run OSX, Windows, or Linux. I have an E80 at the helm and an E120 below. I have found it convenient - occasionally - to see and control radar from below. I have found it far more important to have raster charts on the Mac below as a second source of navigational data independent of Raymarine/Navionics.

These differ significantly at times. I have found it very convenient to have the iPhone running Navionics, a completely independent navigation system all by itself, on the two occasions when the Raymarine system has decided to go Tango Uniform. One thing my system is set up to do (but I haven't yet made all the connections) is to display raster charts from the Mac on the Raymarine E80 at the helm. I think this would be occasionally useful to check/fill in the details that vector charts don't have. You could display the Navionics vector and NOAA raster chart side-by-side.

I have frequently found it quite comforting to overlay the radar image on the chartplot, a feature of the E80/E120 and I think other higher end multifunction displays. This gives you a quick, accurate check on the GPS and chart data. If your chart is offset due to an old survey for example, it is immediately obvious, and by how much. In poorly charted and foggy waters (Newfoundland for example) this is a valuable tool. A GPS chartplotter is a far better navigational tool than radar, if you are convinced of its accuracy.

The overlay convinces you (or not, but at least you know). DDW - i am not sure that any of the programs you are talking about will interface with an on-deck chartplotter. I already have several PC nav programs, including expedition, and none will do this. I have PolarNavy and MacENC (both on a Mac) as well as an early version of Raytech 6.0. PolarNavy Polarview is about $29 and will chartplot all the NOAA stuff (both raster and vector); its companion PolarCom is free and will display all instrument data, display AIS targets, transfer waypoints to and from the E80/E120.

Both PolarNavy programs are available for OSX, Windows, and Linux, and are a spectacular value in my opinion. MacENC is more ($179) will chartplot most format charts, displays instrument data, AIS targets, and transfer waypoints to and from the Raymarine system. Neither will share the data from a Navionics cartridge plugged into the E120, but I have never found this to be even the slightest drawback. I have a Bluetooth MUX connected to the ST1 bus which translates the ST1 datagrams into NMEA and broadcasts it to whatever computer is paired (we have a built-in Mac Mini, a Mac Laptop, an iPad, and iPhones on board).

Any of these can track the boat on various moving charts, see instrument data, etc. Any of them can be used to plot waypoints and transfer them to the Raymarine system via the Bluetooth MUX. There are free open-source programs that will do the same things, OpenCPN for example which will run OSX, Windows, or Linux. I have an E80 at the helm and an E120 below.

I have found it convenient - occasionally - to see and control radar from below. I have found it far more important to have raster charts on the Mac below as a second source of navigational data independent of Raymarine/Navionics. These differ significantly at times. I have found it very convenient to have the iPhone running Navionics, a completely independent navigation system all by itself, on the two occasions when the Raymarine system has decided to go Tango Uniform. One thing my system is set up to do (but I haven't yet made all the connections) is to display raster charts from the Mac on the Raymarine E80 at the helm. I think this would be occasionally useful to check/fill in the details that vector charts don't have. You could display the Navionics vector and NOAA raster chart side-by-side.

I have frequently found it quite comforting to overlay the radar image on the chartplot, a feature of the E80/E120 and I think other higher end multifunction displays. This gives you a quick, accurate check on the GPS and chart data. If your chart is offset due to an old survey for example, it is immediately obvious, and by how much. In poorly charted and foggy waters (Newfoundland for example) this is a valuable tool. A GPS chartplotter is a far better navigational tool than radar, if you are convinced of its accuracy. The overlay convinces you (or not, but at least you know).

Totally agree with radar/chart overlay - i don't like to race through plum gut (LIS) at night without it., the problem in a race is if there is wind, and the current is with you, you go through there so damn fast, it's scary for the navigator., there is just no time for a lot of double-checking., throw in a bit of fog, and other boats, and it's kind of a navigators nightmare. No body wants to hear you say 'hey guys we have to slow down a bit so i can take hand bearings off the flashers.' In the setup i'm envisioning, i will have the overlay on a chartplotter at the helm, and on a laptop down below. I was unaware that polarnavy could transfer waypoints and routes to an E80 at the helm., this is the main thing i want to do. I have a demo version installed on a mac at home, but have never used it on a boat.

There is a wifi MUX linked in the ipad thread -i guess this would work too? For some reason, i thought that when it came to chartplotters, these were one-way., not sure why i thought that. Thanks for the info - seems like it's not so great., although if all i want is an easy way to transfer waypoints and routes to the chartplotter, it might be ok. DDW - i am not sure that any of the programs you are talking about will interface with an on-deck chartplotter. I already have several PC nav programs, including expedition, and none will do this.

TWM -thanks, but i guess i'm not that interested. WHL - i wasn't really thinking i would use my c-map charts (which i bought for expedition) in RNS. I guess my understanding was that RNS could use the charts loaded into the chartplotter. Expedition will display AIS and radar - although i haven't done this myself yet - i've just left that on the chartplotter., so i guess all i really need is the waypoint/route transfer.

It seems odd that basically none of the chartplotter manufacturers have pursued integration of the chartplotter with the PC. I have navigated on a few boats with the new B&G Zeuss chartplotter, and i had some hope that there would PC commiunication there - because it was supposedly designed to integrate with Deckman., but i had to transfer waypoints via a thumb drive (very clunky), and it was highly sensitive to the exact syntax of the GPX file - GPX created in one program worked, and GPX created in an other program didn't work., i've never had an issue with GPX compatibility before. Just to be clear.

RNS indeed does chartplotter/PC integration. Just not very well. We do share cartography between the chartplotter and RNS; it was very hard to set up, uses only Jeppeson C-Map charts (I think newer chartplotters also support Navionics), and is apparently sensitive to the order in which we turn things on (chart plotter first, then start RNS; the other way around seems to cause lockups). We do display raster as well as vector charts on RNS, but I rarely look at the raster chart. Chart radar overlays usually work, although sometimes there is odd behavior. Waypoints and routes can be uploaded from RNS to the chartplotter, although this is very awkward and frequently waypoints disappear from either RNS or the chartplotter for no apparent good reason.

With an HSB2 chart plotter, master arbitration is so flaky that if, for example, we advance a route to the next waypoint on the chartplotter, RNS can't re-assert control of the bus and the whole route locks up until we reboot. We haven't installed AIS yet, and this would require and RNS upgrade with miscellaneous attendant problems, but a friend has done this, and seems to have it working. Too bad Kiwitech/Raytheon/Raymarine didn't put the effort into getting it right. The concept is great, but the execution is lousy. I was unaware that polarnavy could transfer waypoints and routes to an E80 at the helm., this is the main thing i want to do.

I have a demo version installed on a mac at home, but have never used it on a boat. There is a wifi MUX linked in the ipad thread -i guess this would work too? For some reason, i thought that when it came to chartplotters, these were one-way., not sure why i thought that. You need to have PolarCom running (and set up properly), go to the ShipConnect menu and it will connect however you have it configured. Don't know about wifi, on the Mac I have the Bluetooth port configured as a serial port. There is a choice for Network client in the Polarcom configuration, so I suppose that means wifi. The mux I am using is a ShipModul Miniplex 42BT which is a Bluetooth device.

On PolarView, go to the Route manager, select the Waypoints tab, select the waypoints you want to upload. Then go to the E80, hit the Data button, then Archive and Transfer, then Receive on NMEA. Then hit the Upload button on Polarview.

No progress is indicated on either device ( ), but it only takes a few seconds and then you can hit Stop Transfer on the E80. A couple of caveats: I have not been able to get the E80 to accept routes (though it is supposed to), only waypoints. From Polarview, it only takes 8 character waypoint names (MacENC will give it 16 character names, the limit of the E80). Nothing bad happens, it just truncates them. So there is another step in stringing the waypoints into a route on the E80 which isn't too bad really, as it default sorts them by distance.

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The Polarview default naming scheme is 'WPTXXX' so you could sort them by name if distance wasn't convenient. Not sure why I can't get a route to transfer, but I haven't looked into it too deeply.

Second, PolarNavy in their wisdom has not implemented the Upload button in the Route tab of the route manager. It would be far more convenient if they did so, because you could build your route, select them all, upload them. Instead you have to build your route, go to the waypoint tab which shows all of them, pick out the ones for the route, and upload only those.

I guess you could upload all the waypoints, but becomes quite a clutter quickly and things start complaining about multiple names and such. This latter problem does not exist in MacENC which as I recall, uploads the route (but as I recall, I don't actually get the route, only the waypoints - going to have to double check that now). MacENC has more capability, but it will not stitch raster charts together, and the zoom and pan speed is very slow, perhaps as a result. It jumps from chart to chart, or you can pick them manually.

PolarView stitches the charts together, is quite fast at panning and zooming. The only downside is that since charts are stitched with some algorithm, parts of one chart are overlain with another to do the stitching. The problem is, if you are looking for the legend, or Note G, or even just whether soundings are in feet or fathoms it is sometimes not possible as this part of the chart is overlain. There is no easy way to see just that chart, the whole chart, and nothing but the chart. Overall though, I like Polarview - it is cheap, small, launches quickly, seems robust, is responsive. This cruise I am using it in preference to MacENC despite the waypoint upload issue, just because the chart stitching and zoom and pan are so good.

I agree with you about 'pilot workload' as it is called in flying. Even though a boat is only going 6 knots, there are times when pilot workload catches up to you. That's when having a route displayed clearly on a chartplotter with an accurate position is well worth the money. Looks like a decent product.

For a 30-ish foot power boat. But the feature set isn't bad For a 30-ish foot power boat. Whole lot of bling and features for casual sport fishermen and engine integration. It looks like it can also be a display for ST-70 instruments but doesn't look like it adds any derived data more sophisticated than TWA.

Not even TWD, never mind a usable lift/header display. I don't think they want to compete with B&G in the sailing instrumentation dept. But plenty of race boats use a raymarine chartplotter/radar along with their B&G systems.

I've used the new B&G Zeuss 'sailing' chartplotters, and they are far from perfect. Somebody is going to jump into the sailing instrument market some day and absolutely blow it up. The market is 80% power boats, which explains the powerboat focus of the instrument offerings. But also the design departments of the companies are about a decade behind the time typically. Part of that is due to the low volume of the marketplace, but a lot just has to be put to thick headed old school engineering combined with a lack of imagination. (Raymarine ST70 instruments do give you TWD BTW. And TWA or TWD or TWS as a trend graph).

Somebody is going to jump into the sailing instrument market some day and absolutely blow it up. The market is 80% power boats, which explains the powerboat focus of the instrument offerings. But also the design departments of the companies are about a decade behind the time typically.

Part of that is due to the low volume of the marketplace, but a lot just has to be put to thick headed old school engineering combined with a lack of imagination. As I've said many times before, if I had a large fortune and wanted to make a small fortune, I'd jump into the sailing instrument market. I've got a lot of great ideas. But know damn well there is no business case for it. But what is this 'thick headed old school engineering' you speak of? What is the difference between that and thin-headed new school engineering? Surely, you don't have to be a Graduate Of the Last Decade in order to draw a reasonable system block diagram, do functional partitioning cleanly, choose components wisely, manage make/buy, build quality software (in fact, just the opposite IMHO), design a usable human interface, build a reliable marine-ized interconnect or get IP67 right.

But what is this 'thick headed old school engineering' you speak of? What is the difference between that and thin-headed new school engineering?

Surely, you don't have to be a Graduate Of the Last Decade in order to draw a reasonable system block diagram, do functional partitioning cleanly, choose components wisely, manage make/buy, build quality software (in fact, just the opposite IMHO), design a usable human interface, build a reliable marine-ized interconnect or get IP67 right. You don't have to be a genius to improve on many commonplace things. The most glaring recent example being cell phones: they languished with sucky interfaces, bad feature sets, etc. From a number of established manufacturers. Apple says they are coming out with a phone and everyone laughs: 'you can't improve on that old technology, you will fail miserably' was the analyst consensus. They are now the largest and most profitable cell phone manufacturer in the world. And now everyone seems to know how to make a cell phone - you just copy Apple's (though most of them do a poor job of copying).

Even Raymarine's new MFD owes something to Apple: they are using Gestures as part of the touchpad interface. The sailing instrument market is ripe for revolution in the same way. Except that you are absolutely correct that there is no money in it. I have both the means and the ability to start such a company - but I do not want to sustain the inevitable losses involved. Its just too bad that Raymarine or Navico don't hire someone to get them pointed in the right direction.

I had hopes for Garmin, but their offerings seem to suck just as hard. But what is this 'thick headed old school engineering' you speak of? What is the difference between that and thin-headed new school engineering? Surely, you don't have to be a Graduate Of the Last Decade in order to draw a reasonable system block diagram, do functional partitioning cleanly, choose components wisely, manage make/buy, build quality software (in fact, just the opposite IMHO), design a usable human interface, build a reliable marine-ized interconnect or get IP67 right. You don't have to be a genius to improve on many commonplace things. The most glaring recent example being cell phones: they languished with sucky interfaces, bad feature sets, etc.

From a number of established manufacturers. Apple says they are coming out with a phone and everyone laughs: 'you can't improve on that old technology, you will fail miserably' was the analyst consensus.

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They are now the largest and most profitable cell phone manufacturer in the world. And now everyone seems to know how to make a cell phone - you just copy Apple's (though most of them do a poor job of copying). Even Raymarine's new MFD owes something to Apple: they are using Gestures as part of the touchpad interface. The sailing instrument market is ripe for revolution in the same way.

Except that you are absolutely correct that there is no money in it. I have both the means and the ability to start such a company - but I do not want to sustain the inevitable losses involved. Its just too bad that Raymarine or Navico don't hire someone to get them pointed in the right direction. I had hopes for Garmin, but their offerings seem to suck just as hard. As it happens, I once worked for a company that makes, among other things, cell phones. I have friends who work at former competitors. The problem you describe is not old school engineering.

Many of the technologies that Apple put into the iPhone were demonstrated by the Labs years before. Plus a lot of others that nobody, including Apple, ever commercialized.

The problem is really a problem of management and marketing. Steve Jobs has an uncommon gift for vision and industrial design, and for all his flaws as a manager has an ability to drive teams to produce products people want to buy. The traditional mobile device companies have equal or better technology, but their decision making processes are gummed up with MBA thinking. I'm not going to bash my former employer in a public forum, so will stop here.

As far as engineering is concerned, there are researchy/visionary things like touch screens and gestures and (to stay with the cell phone metaphor for now) MIMO, advanced antenna designs and turbo codes), and there are execution things like DFM, reliability, software engineering, thermal/power, and mechanicals. Every time Apple has screwed up, it has been on execution things. My impression is that Raymarine made a business decision (MBA thinking, remember) that performance sailboats constitute too small of a market to dedicate a critical mass of product development to serving. We both appear to agree with that. Ripe for revolution would imply that there is a business case as well as a technology opportunity.

I'm afraid the sailboat instrument market is not ripe for revolution. See: Saving Sailing. For a boat that will be single-handed, i want a chartplotter at the helm. But, i also want to be able to interface with it from down below - send waypoints, routes., etc.

Also, i'd like to view radar, AIS etc down below. One option is to have two networked chartplotters., and i can do this with pretty much any brand of chartplotter. But i'm thinking i'd rather not buy a second chartplotter, but do it from my laptop instead. I'm not really asking about full-fledged PC nav software - i already have several programs, including expedition. I'm only asking about interfacing with a chartplotter at the helm. How good is RNS?

Is it actively supported? Do they upgrade it? Is there a similar product from any other manufacturer? I have a client who wants his E90W at the helm but would like full functionality down below.

Come to find out, Raytech is not compatible with the E-series? We decided to pipe video down below and use a wireless keyboard (G-series) to be able to have control of the chartplotter and display from the nav station down below.

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Not perfect, but it's a solution. Steve Jobs has an uncommon gift for vision and industrial design, and for all his flaws as a manager has an ability to drive teams to produce products people want to buy. The traditional mobile device companies have equal or better technology, but their decision making processes are gummed up with MBA thinking. I worked for Apple for many years (prior to the iPhone era) and make no mistake there are some brilliant people there.

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A lot of them actually. But they all got bogged down when the management was bad. Steve's gift is partly that he has a remarkable ability to generate demand. But a very great part of it is that he is simply willing to take risks in the marketplace. When Apple's management was bad (starting really with Scully and going quite steeply downhill from there) the two primary problems were: inability to control the brilliant thinking that was pulling in too many directions, and an aversion to risk. I think we agree both on what is wrong with the existing players in the instrument market, and why no one is likely to jump in and fix it.